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	<title>Comments on: Joel Osteen on Fox News Sunday: Mitt Romney and Mormons are True Christians and Saved!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/</link>
	<description>2 Timothy 4:3-4</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1723</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1723</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Let&#039;s look at what the Bible says about those who don&#039;t preach The Gospel. I am not saying this because of any one particular individual. This applies to us all. Reading from the New International Version [NIV] 

Galatians 1:8-10 

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. 

Yeeowch! Boy, Paul didn&#039;t care *at all* about what was hip, PC, cool, etc., and he wasn&#039;t out to win friends. He was out to win souls. This wasn&#039;t a popularity contest for Paul. It was life and death. 

1 Corinthians 1:13, 23 

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? ... But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles  

This was Paul&#039;s mission in life. Paul was not out to make sinners feel better about themselves. He knew what was at stake (eternity), and could not have cared any less whether they had had their best life then or not. 

Galatians 2:20-21 

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! 

Paul understood the importance of dying to Self. He never told anyone to take a vow of poverty, but doing things his own way was not on his agenda. If Paul were to be alive in this day and age, I suspect that many modern preachers would say that he (hypothetically) didn&#039;t have enough faith because he wasn&#039;t driving around in a Lexus SUV and he didn&#039;t have a 20,000 square foot summer home. *Material things weren&#039;t important to Paul unless they helped him spread The Gospel.* I seriously doubt that Jesus chose to get into the loftiest, most luxurious, largest pleasure yacht when he preached to the people on the seashore. He could not have cared any less. 

What do the &quot;Prosperity preachers&quot; do with Habakkuk 3:17-18? 

Though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vines, though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though there are no sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will be joyful in God my Savior. 

And what about Job 13:15? 

Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. [KJV] 

and Job 1:20-22? 

Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, And said, Naked came I out of my mother&#039;s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. In all this, Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. [KJV] 

Job was a man who knew his God. And there are so many dear saints in the world today who can&#039;t afford one car, let alone several $30,000+ cars. There are so many Godly men and women in third world countries that are being tortured, raped, beaten, hanged, skewered, burned alive, drowned, shot at, starved &amp; emaciated, had their limbs severed, abandoned in prison cells for days at a time, yet they will not renounce their faith because they have found The Pearl Of Great Price. They know He is worth it. How much faith do those people have? I would be honored to be in the presence of such precious, lovely saints. I have not been given an ounce of their level of faith. Do we honestly think what neighborhood they live in is on their priority list? 

I&#039;m not saying that God calls us all to suffer as those precious people are suffering and have suffered. He gives us each a measure of faith. And the poor we will always have with us, yes I know that. God is not against us having what we consider to be good things, but when our things get in the way of us getting closer to Him and growing in Him, or leading a lost soul to Jesus, then we need to re-examine our priorities. If we truly believe that material objects and financial wealth are status of our faith, then may God have mercy on us. God *IS* angry with us when we sin and do not repent of it and do not make ammends with our fellow Man. He *WILL* hold us accountable for our sins on the Day of Judgement if we have not accepted His Son, Jesus, as our Savior and Lord. And it will not be a good Day for many people. God&#039;s justice, perfection, holiness and righteousness outweigh His own desire to *NOT* send people to hell. On the Day of Judgement, God&#039;s justice, perfection, holiness and righteousness will be so clear and apparent, that every sinner will say &quot;Amen&quot; to their own damnation. Why isn&#039;t this preached to the masses?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s look at what the Bible says about those who don&#8217;t preach The Gospel. I am not saying this because of any one particular individual. This applies to us all. Reading from the New International Version [NIV] </p>
<p>Galatians 1:8-10 </p>
<p>But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. </p>
<p>Yeeowch! Boy, Paul didn&#8217;t care *at all* about what was hip, PC, cool, etc., and he wasn&#8217;t out to win friends. He was out to win souls. This wasn&#8217;t a popularity contest for Paul. It was life and death. </p>
<p>1 Corinthians 1:13, 23 </p>
<p>Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? &#8230; But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles  </p>
<p>This was Paul&#8217;s mission in life. Paul was not out to make sinners feel better about themselves. He knew what was at stake (eternity), and could not have cared any less whether they had had their best life then or not. </p>
<p>Galatians 2:20-21 </p>
<p>I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! </p>
<p>Paul understood the importance of dying to Self. He never told anyone to take a vow of poverty, but doing things his own way was not on his agenda. If Paul were to be alive in this day and age, I suspect that many modern preachers would say that he (hypothetically) didn&#8217;t have enough faith because he wasn&#8217;t driving around in a Lexus SUV and he didn&#8217;t have a 20,000 square foot summer home. *Material things weren&#8217;t important to Paul unless they helped him spread The Gospel.* I seriously doubt that Jesus chose to get into the loftiest, most luxurious, largest pleasure yacht when he preached to the people on the seashore. He could not have cared any less. </p>
<p>What do the &#8220;Prosperity preachers&#8221; do with Habakkuk 3:17-18? </p>
<p>Though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vines, though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though there are no sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will be joyful in God my Savior. </p>
<p>And what about Job 13:15? </p>
<p>Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. [KJV] </p>
<p>and Job 1:20-22? </p>
<p>Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, And said, Naked came I out of my mother&#8217;s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. In all this, Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. [KJV] </p>
<p>Job was a man who knew his God. And there are so many dear saints in the world today who can&#8217;t afford one car, let alone several $30,000+ cars. There are so many Godly men and women in third world countries that are being tortured, raped, beaten, hanged, skewered, burned alive, drowned, shot at, starved &amp; emaciated, had their limbs severed, abandoned in prison cells for days at a time, yet they will not renounce their faith because they have found The Pearl Of Great Price. They know He is worth it. How much faith do those people have? I would be honored to be in the presence of such precious, lovely saints. I have not been given an ounce of their level of faith. Do we honestly think what neighborhood they live in is on their priority list? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that God calls us all to suffer as those precious people are suffering and have suffered. He gives us each a measure of faith. And the poor we will always have with us, yes I know that. God is not against us having what we consider to be good things, but when our things get in the way of us getting closer to Him and growing in Him, or leading a lost soul to Jesus, then we need to re-examine our priorities. If we truly believe that material objects and financial wealth are status of our faith, then may God have mercy on us. God *IS* angry with us when we sin and do not repent of it and do not make ammends with our fellow Man. He *WILL* hold us accountable for our sins on the Day of Judgement if we have not accepted His Son, Jesus, as our Savior and Lord. And it will not be a good Day for many people. God&#8217;s justice, perfection, holiness and righteousness outweigh His own desire to *NOT* send people to hell. On the Day of Judgement, God&#8217;s justice, perfection, holiness and righteousness will be so clear and apparent, that every sinner will say &#8220;Amen&#8221; to their own damnation. Why isn&#8217;t this preached to the masses?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mormons are Christians? &#124; archshrk</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1712</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mormons are Christians? &#124; archshrk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] posts on the subject&#8230; John Baker of  True Discernment Eric Barger of Take A Stand! Ministries I encourage you to read these posts and when you&#8217;re [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] posts on the subject&#8230; John Baker of  True Discernment Eric Barger of Take A Stand! Ministries I encourage you to read these posts and when you&#8217;re [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: simplykoya</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1460</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[simplykoya]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just reading your post and I am impressed!  Thought I would encourage you in your good work!  You seem very knowledgeable and I love that you can lay out the truth so clearly!! Keep up the good work!  I do have to say I like Joel O and am saddened that he took such a &quot;PC&quot; stance on mormon salvation.  I think he knows the truth, just trying to keep peace, truly sad that a man with such a realm of influence would buckle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just reading your post and I am impressed!  Thought I would encourage you in your good work!  You seem very knowledgeable and I love that you can lay out the truth so clearly!! Keep up the good work!  I do have to say I like Joel O and am saddened that he took such a &#8220;PC&#8221; stance on mormon salvation.  I think he knows the truth, just trying to keep peace, truly sad that a man with such a realm of influence would buckle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1454</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1454</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Apparently some do not think I have provided enough Scriptural Proof to show the fraudulent and clearly anti-Christian nature of Mormonism:

&lt;strong&gt;Mormonism vs. the Bible&lt;/strong&gt;

By Gary F. Zeolla

In 1820, a man by the name of Joseph Smith claimed he had a vision in which God the Father and the Son appeared to him. He said he was told the churches of that time, &quot;were all wrong&quot; and &quot;all their creeds were an abomination&quot; (Smith, p.49).

In a later vision Joseph Smith alleged he was told he was the one chosen to restore the true Church to the world by bringing forth the Book of Mormon. As a result, on April 6, 1830, &quot;The Church of Christ&quot; was founded. The name was later changed to, &quot;The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints&quot; (LDS). The group is more popularly known as &quot;Mormonism.&quot;

Joseph Smith was killed by an angry mob on June 27, 1844. Afterwards, Brigham Young took over the presidency of the new church (McDowell, pp.64-66). Since then, the Mormon church has had a succession of 11 presidents (or prophets; Hinckley, pp.130-131). The LDS church also has 12 men designated as apostles at all times. 

&lt;strong&gt;Doctrinal Shift &lt;/strong&gt;

Mormonism has diverted from historic Christianity on many doctrinal issues. One important shift is its attitude towards revelation.

The LDS believes its prophets are &quot;God&#039;s mouthpieces&quot; and, &quot;... the statements of the presidents of the church should stand next to the scriptures as authoritative sources on the various gospel doctrines&quot; (Ludlow, pp.viii, ix). The teachings of its apostles are also considered authoritative, though not infallible like those of the prophets.

But the Bible does not teach that the offices of prophet and apostle as givers of special revelation will continue indefinitely. Paul refers to the Church as, &quot;having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.&quot; A &quot;foundation&quot; is laid first, and only once. The &quot;building&quot; then &quot;grows&quot; on top of it (Eph 2:20,21).

Further, &quot;The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2Pet 1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2,14-16; Jude 3-4,17). Peter and Jude did not say &quot;Listen to the apostles living today,&quot; but instead urged believers to &#039;remember what the apostles said&#039;&quot; (Bowman, p. 31). 

&lt;strong&gt;Low View of the Bible&lt;/strong&gt; 

One reason Mormonism has moved away from a belief in the all-sufficiency of the Bible is its acceptance of a negative, lower criticism of the Scriptures.

Joseph Smith claimed, &quot;Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors.&quot; Brigham Young said further, &quot;... many precious things have been rejected in the compilation and translation of the Bible&quot; (Ludlow, pp.345f). For discussions on these claims see Have Precious Truths Been Lost from the Bible? and An Introduction to Textual Criticism.

Despite its low view of Scripture, Mormonism still claims its belief system coheres with the teachings of the Bible. Brigham Young proclaimed, &quot;In all my teachings, I have taught the gospel from the Old and New Testaments. I have found therein every doctrine and the proof of every doctrine the Latter-Day Saints believe in&quot; (Ludlow, p.346).

This LDS claim will be tested against the teachings of the Bible (Acts 17:11). 

&lt;strong&gt;Doctrine of God &lt;/strong&gt;

Joseph Smith declares the Mormon doctrine of God, &quot;GOD HIMSELF WAS ONCE AS WE ARE NOW AND IS AN EXALTED MAN and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! ...&quot;

Joseph Smith continues, &quot;It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that HE WAS ONCE A MAN LIKE US; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.&quot;

Another LDS prophet, Lorenzo Snow, taught, &quot;We are the offspring of our Father in Heaven and we possess in our spiritual organizations the same capabilities, powers and faculties that our Father possesses, although in an infantile state.&quot;

Further, the Mormon god still has room to progress. President Woodruff stated, &quot;GOD HIMSELF IS INCREASING AND PROGRESSING IN KNOWLEDGE, POWER, AND DOMINION, and will do so, worlds without end.&quot;

Moreover, the Mormon god&#039;s progress is contingent on man&#039;s. Lorenzo Snow, another president taught, &quot;He has given us faculties and powers that are capable of enlargement until HIS fullness is reached.&quot;

Also, Joseph Smith taught, &quot;Our Father in Heaven is a personage of tabernacle, just as I am ... and HE HAS ALL THE PARTS AND PASSIONS OF A PERFECT MAN, and HIS BODY IS COMPOSED OF FLESH AND BONES, but not of blood&quot; (Ludlow, pp.277,276,78,74,278).

Thus, according to Mormonism, the difference between God and human beings is only one of degree, not of kind. He has simply progressed further than we have. 

&lt;strong&gt;Is This the God of the Bible? &lt;/strong&gt;

Is this the God of the Bible? First it must be asked if God changes, grows and progresses. Is God mutable (subject to change) or immutable (not subject to change)?

Psalm 102:25-27 contrast the changing, non-eternal nature of the universe with the unchanging, eternal nature of God. God Himself spoke through Malachi and proclaimed, &quot;For I am the LORD, I do not change ...&quot; (Mal 3:6; see also 1Sam 15:29; Heb 6:13-20; Jam 1:17). These verses clearly show the God of the Bible is immutable.

Second, there is no way the God of the Bible used to be a man. Moses prayed, &quot;Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God&quot; (Ps 90:2; see also Numb 23:19).

Third, the God of the Bible does not have a physical body composed of &quot;flesh and bones.&quot; Jesus stated very clearly, &quot;God is Spirit&quot; (John 4:24). Elsewhere, Jesus declared, &quot;a spirit does not have flesh and bones&quot; (Luke 24:39). Also, if God had a physical body, He would be visible; but the Bible teaches God is INVISIBLE (Job 9:11; Col 1:15; 1Tim 1:17; 6:16; Heb 11:27; 1John 4:12).

And finally, Paul proclaimed to the Athenians, &quot;The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He served with men&#039;s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives life and breath and all things to all&quot; (Acts 17:25,26; MKJV).

The God of the Bible is in no way dependent on us; but we are absolutely dependent on Him! (see also 1Chr 29:14; Rom 12:3; 1Cor 4:6,7; 15:10; 2Cor 3:5). 

&lt;strong&gt;Sex in Heaven? &lt;/strong&gt;

Next to be studied is Mormonism&#039;s attitude towards Jesus and His relationship to people in general. Brigham Young professed, &quot;WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS OUR ELDER BROTHER ....&quot; Likewise, Joseph Smith said, &quot;Among the spirit children of Elohim [God the Father], the firstborn was and is ... Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors&quot; (Ludlow, p.280).

LDS apostle Bruce McConkie writes, &quot;Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of AN ETERNAL MOTHER&quot; (quoted in Tanners, p.164).

Moreover, another Mormon apostle, Orson Pratt, declared, &quot;We have now clearly shown that GOD THE FATHER HAD A PLURALITY OF WIVES, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first born, AND ANOTHER BEING UPON THE EARTH BY WHOM HE BEGAT THE TABERNACLE [PHYSICAL BODY] OF JESUS, as His only begotten in this world&quot; (quoted in Tanners, p.227).

Joseph Smith explains further, &quot;Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, ELOHIM IS LITERALLY THE FATHER OF THE SPIRIT OF JESUS CHRIST AND ALSO OF THE BODY in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ...&quot; (Ludlow, p.280).

Putting this all together, Mormonism teaches the SPIRITS of all people were conceived in heaven via physical, sexual intercourse between the Father and one or more of his goddess wives. This &quot;heavenly sex&quot; is possible since the Mormon god (and presumably His wives) have &quot;all the parts and passions&quot; that we do.

Thus, in Mormonism, the only difference between Jesus and people in general is that His spirit was conceived before ours. Also, to produce Jesus&#039; physical body, the Mormon god came down to earth and had sexual intercourse with the virgin Mary. 

&lt;strong&gt;Is This in the Bible? &lt;/strong&gt;

Are any of these ideas in the Bible? Is Jesus just our &quot;elder brother&quot; or is He unique? John 1:18; 3:16 teach Jesus is the &quot;only begotten Son.&quot; The footnote in The Believer&#039;s Study Bible comments, &quot;The only begotten Son&quot; (Greek, monogenes) means one of a kind, unique, without precedent&quot; (Criswell, p.1494). John 5:18-26 clearly upholds Jesus&#039; uniqueness. He is said to be &quot;equal to God&quot; (v.18) and to have &quot;life in Himself&quot; (v.26). Jesus is declared to have an unique relationship with the Father (vv.19-24; compare Matt 11:27).

As for heavenly sex, it must asked, &quot;How can the copulation of PHYSICAL beings (the Mormon god and his goddess wives) produce SPIRIT children?&quot; Further, as already shown, the God of the Bible does not have a physical body. Hence, the whole  concept of sex in heaven is simply nonsense (see Matt 22:30).

As for God having sexual intercourse with Mary, according to Mormonism, Mary is literally the daughter of the Father. As such, for God to have had intercourse with her would have been INCEST! But such behavior would have Him breaking His own Law while causing Mary to sin (see Lev 18:6,7,17).

And lastly, the Virgin Birth of Christ is explicitly and implicitly taught in the Bible. This was demonstrated in the article &quot;Born of the Virgin Mary.&quot; 

&lt;strong&gt;Mormon Exaltation&lt;/strong&gt;

Joseph Fielding Smith was a descendent of Joseph Smith and the tenth Mormon president. He declared, &quot;Joseph Smith taught a plurality of Gods, and that man by obeying the commandments of God and KEEPING THE WHOLE LAW will eventually reach the power and EXALTATION BY WHICH HE ALSO WILL BECOME A GOD&quot; (p.98).

The book Gospel Principles is used by the LDS church to train new converts. The last chapter is titled &quot;Exaltation&quot; and explains this concept, &quot;Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the father of spirit children. He is a creator. WE CAN BECOME GODS LIKE OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. THIS IS EXALTATION&quot; (pp.289,290).

Lorenzo Snow summarizes the Mormon position, &quot;AS MAN NOW IS, OUR GOD WAS; AS NOW GOD IS, SO MAN MAY BE ...&quot; (Ludlow, p.72). So a Mormon man is working to become a god. But the goal for a Mormon woman is rather different.

John Taylor, third president of the Mormon church, explains this goal in a letter to a Mormon lady. He is responding to her question, &quot;And what is my final destiny after having obeyed the truth, if faithful to the end?&quot;

Taylor writes:

Thou wilt be permitted to pass by the Gods and angels who guard the gates, and onward, upward to THY EXALTATION in a celestial world among the Gods, to be a priestess queen upon thy Heavenly Father&#039;s throne, and a glory to thy husband and offspring, TO BEAR THE SOULS OF MEN, TO PEOPLE OTHER WORLDS (as thou did bear their tabernacles in mortality) WHILE ETERNITY GOES AND ETERNITY COMES; and if you will receive it, lady, this is eternal life (quoted in Ludlow, pp.9,10). 

So a Mormon woman is working to have the privilege of populating her exalted husband&#039;s planet. And notice, this is done in the same way children are brought forth &quot;in mortality&quot; (i.e. on this earth) and it continues indefinitely. In other words, &quot;heaven&quot; for a Mormon woman is to be eternally pregnant! 

&lt;strong&gt;Biblical Justification &lt;/strong&gt;

But what does the Bible teach on these matters? First, can men become gods? The true God declared through Isaiah, &quot;And understand that I am He. BEFORE ME WAS NO GOD FORMED, NOR SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME. I, even, I am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior&quot; (Isaiah 43:10,11).

How much clearer could God be? There is only ONE God. This has always been the case and always will be (see also Deut 4:35; 6:4; 2Sam 7:22; Isa 44:6,8; 46:9).

So men cannot be &quot;exalted&quot; to gods and women need not look forward to being eternally pregnant. The true need for both men and women is JUSTIFICATION before God.

John Robbins explains, &quot;Justification by faith is the heart of the Gospel. As sinners we are all condemned before God; we deserve whatever punishment he is pleased to give us. But Christ died for the sins of his people; they are justified, rather than condemned&quot; (Robbins, p.1; Luke 18:9-14; Rom 3:9-26; 4:5-8; 5:8-11).

To those trusting in Christ&#039;s death for their justification, Paul writes, &quot;Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ&quot; (Rom 5:1; see also Acts 13:38,39; Rom 8:33-39; 1Cor 6:11; Titus 3:4-7). 

For additional study on the teachings of Mormonism, see the book &quot;Behind the Mask of Mormonism&quot; by John Ankerberg and John Weldon. It is available from Books-A-Million .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently some do not think I have provided enough Scriptural Proof to show the fraudulent and clearly anti-Christian nature of Mormonism:</p>
<p><strong>Mormonism vs. the Bible</strong></p>
<p>By Gary F. Zeolla</p>
<p>In 1820, a man by the name of Joseph Smith claimed he had a vision in which God the Father and the Son appeared to him. He said he was told the churches of that time, &#8220;were all wrong&#8221; and &#8220;all their creeds were an abomination&#8221; (Smith, p.49).</p>
<p>In a later vision Joseph Smith alleged he was told he was the one chosen to restore the true Church to the world by bringing forth the Book of Mormon. As a result, on April 6, 1830, &#8220;The Church of Christ&#8221; was founded. The name was later changed to, &#8220;The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints&#8221; (LDS). The group is more popularly known as &#8220;Mormonism.&#8221;</p>
<p>Joseph Smith was killed by an angry mob on June 27, 1844. Afterwards, Brigham Young took over the presidency of the new church (McDowell, pp.64-66). Since then, the Mormon church has had a succession of 11 presidents (or prophets; Hinckley, pp.130-131). The LDS church also has 12 men designated as apostles at all times. </p>
<p><strong>Doctrinal Shift </strong></p>
<p>Mormonism has diverted from historic Christianity on many doctrinal issues. One important shift is its attitude towards revelation.</p>
<p>The LDS believes its prophets are &#8220;God&#8217;s mouthpieces&#8221; and, &#8220;&#8230; the statements of the presidents of the church should stand next to the scriptures as authoritative sources on the various gospel doctrines&#8221; (Ludlow, pp.viii, ix). The teachings of its apostles are also considered authoritative, though not infallible like those of the prophets.</p>
<p>But the Bible does not teach that the offices of prophet and apostle as givers of special revelation will continue indefinitely. Paul refers to the Church as, &#8220;having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.&#8221; A &#8220;foundation&#8221; is laid first, and only once. The &#8220;building&#8221; then &#8220;grows&#8221; on top of it (Eph 2:20,21).</p>
<p>Further, &#8220;The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2Pet 1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2,14-16; Jude 3-4,17). Peter and Jude did not say &#8220;Listen to the apostles living today,&#8221; but instead urged believers to &#8216;remember what the apostles said&#8217;&#8221; (Bowman, p. 31). </p>
<p><strong>Low View of the Bible</strong> </p>
<p>One reason Mormonism has moved away from a belief in the all-sufficiency of the Bible is its acceptance of a negative, lower criticism of the Scriptures.</p>
<p>Joseph Smith claimed, &#8220;Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors.&#8221; Brigham Young said further, &#8220;&#8230; many precious things have been rejected in the compilation and translation of the Bible&#8221; (Ludlow, pp.345f). For discussions on these claims see Have Precious Truths Been Lost from the Bible? and An Introduction to Textual Criticism.</p>
<p>Despite its low view of Scripture, Mormonism still claims its belief system coheres with the teachings of the Bible. Brigham Young proclaimed, &#8220;In all my teachings, I have taught the gospel from the Old and New Testaments. I have found therein every doctrine and the proof of every doctrine the Latter-Day Saints believe in&#8221; (Ludlow, p.346).</p>
<p>This LDS claim will be tested against the teachings of the Bible (Acts 17:11). </p>
<p><strong>Doctrine of God </strong></p>
<p>Joseph Smith declares the Mormon doctrine of God, &#8220;GOD HIMSELF WAS ONCE AS WE ARE NOW AND IS AN EXALTED MAN and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Joseph Smith continues, &#8220;It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that HE WAS ONCE A MAN LIKE US; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.&#8221;</p>
<p>Another LDS prophet, Lorenzo Snow, taught, &#8220;We are the offspring of our Father in Heaven and we possess in our spiritual organizations the same capabilities, powers and faculties that our Father possesses, although in an infantile state.&#8221;</p>
<p>Further, the Mormon god still has room to progress. President Woodruff stated, &#8220;GOD HIMSELF IS INCREASING AND PROGRESSING IN KNOWLEDGE, POWER, AND DOMINION, and will do so, worlds without end.&#8221;</p>
<p>Moreover, the Mormon god&#8217;s progress is contingent on man&#8217;s. Lorenzo Snow, another president taught, &#8220;He has given us faculties and powers that are capable of enlargement until HIS fullness is reached.&#8221;</p>
<p>Also, Joseph Smith taught, &#8220;Our Father in Heaven is a personage of tabernacle, just as I am &#8230; and HE HAS ALL THE PARTS AND PASSIONS OF A PERFECT MAN, and HIS BODY IS COMPOSED OF FLESH AND BONES, but not of blood&#8221; (Ludlow, pp.277,276,78,74,278).</p>
<p>Thus, according to Mormonism, the difference between God and human beings is only one of degree, not of kind. He has simply progressed further than we have. </p>
<p><strong>Is This the God of the Bible? </strong></p>
<p>Is this the God of the Bible? First it must be asked if God changes, grows and progresses. Is God mutable (subject to change) or immutable (not subject to change)?</p>
<p>Psalm 102:25-27 contrast the changing, non-eternal nature of the universe with the unchanging, eternal nature of God. God Himself spoke through Malachi and proclaimed, &#8220;For I am the LORD, I do not change &#8230;&#8221; (Mal 3:6; see also 1Sam 15:29; Heb 6:13-20; Jam 1:17). These verses clearly show the God of the Bible is immutable.</p>
<p>Second, there is no way the God of the Bible used to be a man. Moses prayed, &#8220;Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God&#8221; (Ps 90:2; see also Numb 23:19).</p>
<p>Third, the God of the Bible does not have a physical body composed of &#8220;flesh and bones.&#8221; Jesus stated very clearly, &#8220;God is Spirit&#8221; (John 4:24). Elsewhere, Jesus declared, &#8220;a spirit does not have flesh and bones&#8221; (Luke 24:39). Also, if God had a physical body, He would be visible; but the Bible teaches God is INVISIBLE (Job 9:11; Col 1:15; 1Tim 1:17; 6:16; Heb 11:27; 1John 4:12).</p>
<p>And finally, Paul proclaimed to the Athenians, &#8220;The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He served with men&#8217;s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives life and breath and all things to all&#8221; (Acts 17:25,26; MKJV).</p>
<p>The God of the Bible is in no way dependent on us; but we are absolutely dependent on Him! (see also 1Chr 29:14; Rom 12:3; 1Cor 4:6,7; 15:10; 2Cor 3:5). </p>
<p><strong>Sex in Heaven? </strong></p>
<p>Next to be studied is Mormonism&#8217;s attitude towards Jesus and His relationship to people in general. Brigham Young professed, &#8220;WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS OUR ELDER BROTHER &#8230;.&#8221; Likewise, Joseph Smith said, &#8220;Among the spirit children of Elohim [God the Father], the firstborn was and is &#8230; Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors&#8221; (Ludlow, p.280).</p>
<p>LDS apostle Bruce McConkie writes, &#8220;Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of AN ETERNAL MOTHER&#8221; (quoted in Tanners, p.164).</p>
<p>Moreover, another Mormon apostle, Orson Pratt, declared, &#8220;We have now clearly shown that GOD THE FATHER HAD A PLURALITY OF WIVES, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first born, AND ANOTHER BEING UPON THE EARTH BY WHOM HE BEGAT THE TABERNACLE [PHYSICAL BODY] OF JESUS, as His only begotten in this world&#8221; (quoted in Tanners, p.227).</p>
<p>Joseph Smith explains further, &#8220;Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, ELOHIM IS LITERALLY THE FATHER OF THE SPIRIT OF JESUS CHRIST AND ALSO OF THE BODY in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh &#8230;&#8221; (Ludlow, p.280).</p>
<p>Putting this all together, Mormonism teaches the SPIRITS of all people were conceived in heaven via physical, sexual intercourse between the Father and one or more of his goddess wives. This &#8220;heavenly sex&#8221; is possible since the Mormon god (and presumably His wives) have &#8220;all the parts and passions&#8221; that we do.</p>
<p>Thus, in Mormonism, the only difference between Jesus and people in general is that His spirit was conceived before ours. Also, to produce Jesus&#8217; physical body, the Mormon god came down to earth and had sexual intercourse with the virgin Mary. </p>
<p><strong>Is This in the Bible? </strong></p>
<p>Are any of these ideas in the Bible? Is Jesus just our &#8220;elder brother&#8221; or is He unique? John 1:18; 3:16 teach Jesus is the &#8220;only begotten Son.&#8221; The footnote in The Believer&#8217;s Study Bible comments, &#8220;The only begotten Son&#8221; (Greek, monogenes) means one of a kind, unique, without precedent&#8221; (Criswell, p.1494). John 5:18-26 clearly upholds Jesus&#8217; uniqueness. He is said to be &#8220;equal to God&#8221; (v.18) and to have &#8220;life in Himself&#8221; (v.26). Jesus is declared to have an unique relationship with the Father (vv.19-24; compare Matt 11:27).</p>
<p>As for heavenly sex, it must asked, &#8220;How can the copulation of PHYSICAL beings (the Mormon god and his goddess wives) produce SPIRIT children?&#8221; Further, as already shown, the God of the Bible does not have a physical body. Hence, the whole  concept of sex in heaven is simply nonsense (see Matt 22:30).</p>
<p>As for God having sexual intercourse with Mary, according to Mormonism, Mary is literally the daughter of the Father. As such, for God to have had intercourse with her would have been INCEST! But such behavior would have Him breaking His own Law while causing Mary to sin (see Lev 18:6,7,17).</p>
<p>And lastly, the Virgin Birth of Christ is explicitly and implicitly taught in the Bible. This was demonstrated in the article &#8220;Born of the Virgin Mary.&#8221; </p>
<p><strong>Mormon Exaltation</strong></p>
<p>Joseph Fielding Smith was a descendent of Joseph Smith and the tenth Mormon president. He declared, &#8220;Joseph Smith taught a plurality of Gods, and that man by obeying the commandments of God and KEEPING THE WHOLE LAW will eventually reach the power and EXALTATION BY WHICH HE ALSO WILL BECOME A GOD&#8221; (p.98).</p>
<p>The book Gospel Principles is used by the LDS church to train new converts. The last chapter is titled &#8220;Exaltation&#8221; and explains this concept, &#8220;Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the father of spirit children. He is a creator. WE CAN BECOME GODS LIKE OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. THIS IS EXALTATION&#8221; (pp.289,290).</p>
<p>Lorenzo Snow summarizes the Mormon position, &#8220;AS MAN NOW IS, OUR GOD WAS; AS NOW GOD IS, SO MAN MAY BE &#8230;&#8221; (Ludlow, p.72). So a Mormon man is working to become a god. But the goal for a Mormon woman is rather different.</p>
<p>John Taylor, third president of the Mormon church, explains this goal in a letter to a Mormon lady. He is responding to her question, &#8220;And what is my final destiny after having obeyed the truth, if faithful to the end?&#8221;</p>
<p>Taylor writes:</p>
<p>Thou wilt be permitted to pass by the Gods and angels who guard the gates, and onward, upward to THY EXALTATION in a celestial world among the Gods, to be a priestess queen upon thy Heavenly Father&#8217;s throne, and a glory to thy husband and offspring, TO BEAR THE SOULS OF MEN, TO PEOPLE OTHER WORLDS (as thou did bear their tabernacles in mortality) WHILE ETERNITY GOES AND ETERNITY COMES; and if you will receive it, lady, this is eternal life (quoted in Ludlow, pp.9,10). </p>
<p>So a Mormon woman is working to have the privilege of populating her exalted husband&#8217;s planet. And notice, this is done in the same way children are brought forth &#8220;in mortality&#8221; (i.e. on this earth) and it continues indefinitely. In other words, &#8220;heaven&#8221; for a Mormon woman is to be eternally pregnant! </p>
<p><strong>Biblical Justification </strong></p>
<p>But what does the Bible teach on these matters? First, can men become gods? The true God declared through Isaiah, &#8220;And understand that I am He. BEFORE ME WAS NO GOD FORMED, NOR SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME. I, even, I am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior&#8221; (Isaiah 43:10,11).</p>
<p>How much clearer could God be? There is only ONE God. This has always been the case and always will be (see also Deut 4:35; 6:4; 2Sam 7:22; Isa 44:6,8; 46:9).</p>
<p>So men cannot be &#8220;exalted&#8221; to gods and women need not look forward to being eternally pregnant. The true need for both men and women is JUSTIFICATION before God.</p>
<p>John Robbins explains, &#8220;Justification by faith is the heart of the Gospel. As sinners we are all condemned before God; we deserve whatever punishment he is pleased to give us. But Christ died for the sins of his people; they are justified, rather than condemned&#8221; (Robbins, p.1; Luke 18:9-14; Rom 3:9-26; 4:5-8; 5:8-11).</p>
<p>To those trusting in Christ&#8217;s death for their justification, Paul writes, &#8220;Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ&#8221; (Rom 5:1; see also Acts 13:38,39; Rom 8:33-39; 1Cor 6:11; Titus 3:4-7). </p>
<p>For additional study on the teachings of Mormonism, see the book &#8220;Behind the Mask of Mormonism&#8221; by John Ankerberg and John Weldon. It is available from Books-A-Million .</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1441</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 05:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To all,

I have received more comments from those who support the Mormon contention that they are True Christians and I have chosen not to post those comments for this simple reason and I have reiterated this before on this web site:

This web site is not a free for all web site where anyone can post comments at their will. This web site is for posting articles that point out the growing apostasy among Evangelical Christians and showing this Biblically.

I will not post ad nauseum, comments that argue from a postion of Relative Truth or non-Biblcial sources. if you can make a comment refuting any article on this web site using full Biblical support only and arguing from a position of anti-thesis which the Word of God is clearly based on your comments will be posted and responded to, otherwise I will not get into endless debates with those who do not accept Sola Scriptura (by Scripture Alone).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To all,</p>
<p>I have received more comments from those who support the Mormon contention that they are True Christians and I have chosen not to post those comments for this simple reason and I have reiterated this before on this web site:</p>
<p>This web site is not a free for all web site where anyone can post comments at their will. This web site is for posting articles that point out the growing apostasy among Evangelical Christians and showing this Biblically.</p>
<p>I will not post ad nauseum, comments that argue from a postion of Relative Truth or non-Biblcial sources. if you can make a comment refuting any article on this web site using full Biblical support only and arguing from a position of anti-thesis which the Word of God is clearly based on your comments will be posted and responded to, otherwise I will not get into endless debates with those who do not accept Sola Scriptura (by Scripture Alone).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1436</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 04:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1436</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To Jeff,

It is not denigrating you to say that being a Mormon says that you are not saved. It is stating a clear and undeniable Biblical Truth.

It matters not that you study the New Testament, If you hold to the tenets of faith of the Mormon Church you are not saved.

If you actually believe that God the Father and God the Son (Jesus Christ) were first men who attained Deity by an upright life as a man, that you believe YOU can become a God like God the Father, and God the Son when you die then no you are not a Christian and you are not saved.

Mormonism is not Biblical, I suggest you read my comment above laying out what Mormonism teaches and how hit directly contradicts Scripture.

All Cults and false religions claim to  have received a later revelation that &quot;clarifies&quot; scripture or adds to it. Mormonism is no different.

I would say to you with love, repent, denounce and refute Mormonism full stop.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Jeff,</p>
<p>It is not denigrating you to say that being a Mormon says that you are not saved. It is stating a clear and undeniable Biblical Truth.</p>
<p>It matters not that you study the New Testament, If you hold to the tenets of faith of the Mormon Church you are not saved.</p>
<p>If you actually believe that God the Father and God the Son (Jesus Christ) were first men who attained Deity by an upright life as a man, that you believe YOU can become a God like God the Father, and God the Son when you die then no you are not a Christian and you are not saved.</p>
<p>Mormonism is not Biblical, I suggest you read my comment above laying out what Mormonism teaches and how hit directly contradicts Scripture.</p>
<p>All Cults and false religions claim to  have received a later revelation that &#8220;clarifies&#8221; scripture or adds to it. Mormonism is no different.</p>
<p>I would say to you with love, repent, denounce and refute Mormonism full stop.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1435</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 04:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1435</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Craig,

What you say sounds all well and good on the surface, however what you believe each one of those things to mean is the key fundamental and important factor and that is who you believe Jesus is ie Jesus is the Son of God, the second person in the trinity of the God-head eternally co-existent with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

The matter of whether salvation is dependent on a list of specific Theological as you put it &quot;musings&quot; on the exact nature of deity is also a key fundamental Biblical aspect of whether you are actually saved or not.

You obviously do not know why Satan fell and became who he was:

Isaiah 14:12-15:

 How you are fallen from heaven, 
      O Lucifer, son of the morning! 
      How you are cut down to the ground, 
      You who weakened the nations! 
       For you have said in your heart: 

      ‘ I will ascend into heaven, 
      I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; 
      I will also sit on the mount of the congregation 
      On the farthest sides of the north; 
       I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, 
      I will be like the Most High.’ 
       Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, 
      To the lowest depths of the Pit. 


Satan (Lucifer) wanted out of pride to make himself equal to God. Mormonism finds its root in Satanic Rebellion: To make ones self equal with God. Ad that my friend is not some Theological &quot;Musing&quot;

To understand one&#039;s relationship to God is key to being saved. &quot;The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom&quot; (Prov. 1:7). 

When you understand and respect God for who he is: The everlasting eternal creator and sustainer of all creation, whom you can never be equal to then you will find that you could never think that fact a mere Theological musing. it is the key foundation of all Scripture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig,</p>
<p>What you say sounds all well and good on the surface, however what you believe each one of those things to mean is the key fundamental and important factor and that is who you believe Jesus is ie Jesus is the Son of God, the second person in the trinity of the God-head eternally co-existent with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.</p>
<p>The matter of whether salvation is dependent on a list of specific Theological as you put it &#8220;musings&#8221; on the exact nature of deity is also a key fundamental Biblical aspect of whether you are actually saved or not.</p>
<p>You obviously do not know why Satan fell and became who he was:</p>
<p>Isaiah 14:12-15:</p>
<p> How you are fallen from heaven,<br />
      O Lucifer, son of the morning!<br />
      How you are cut down to the ground,<br />
      You who weakened the nations!<br />
       For you have said in your heart: </p>
<p>      ‘ I will ascend into heaven,<br />
      I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;<br />
      I will also sit on the mount of the congregation<br />
      On the farthest sides of the north;<br />
       I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,<br />
      I will be like the Most High.’<br />
       Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,<br />
      To the lowest depths of the Pit. </p>
<p>Satan (Lucifer) wanted out of pride to make himself equal to God. Mormonism finds its root in Satanic Rebellion: To make ones self equal with God. Ad that my friend is not some Theological &#8220;Musing&#8221;</p>
<p>To understand one&#8217;s relationship to God is key to being saved. &#8220;The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom&#8221; (Prov. 1:7). </p>
<p>When you understand and respect God for who he is: The everlasting eternal creator and sustainer of all creation, whom you can never be equal to then you will find that you could never think that fact a mere Theological musing. it is the key foundation of all Scripture.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1433</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 02:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1433</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John,

I too am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a 27 year old college graduate, working as a concrete dispatcher, preparing for family life, and participating in my community.  Where do I look for light and guidance through this wicked world of ours?  To Jesus of Nazareth.
We just finished our year long Sunday School study on the New Testament wherein church members called to teach from the New Testament did so with love and reverence for their personal Savior.  We studied the Sermon on the Mount and sought ways to follow the Lord&#039;s teachings in our every day lives.
I don&#039;t denigrate the faith others claim in their Savior and I would ask that you not denigrate mine, for this Jesus has saved me from misery and shown me the high road of service, learning, and love for my fellow man.  And this Jesus of Nazareth is the very Jesus our church leaders teach and prophecy about.  I know this with all my heart and mind and I know my witness is true.
How could that be?  Because the Holy Spirit sweetly, peacefully, and with love sublime testifies to my soul that this is the work of the Lord and that if I follow in His course He will purify my heart and fill me with His perfect love.  I love the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>I too am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a 27 year old college graduate, working as a concrete dispatcher, preparing for family life, and participating in my community.  Where do I look for light and guidance through this wicked world of ours?  To Jesus of Nazareth.<br />
We just finished our year long Sunday School study on the New Testament wherein church members called to teach from the New Testament did so with love and reverence for their personal Savior.  We studied the Sermon on the Mount and sought ways to follow the Lord&#8217;s teachings in our every day lives.<br />
I don&#8217;t denigrate the faith others claim in their Savior and I would ask that you not denigrate mine, for this Jesus has saved me from misery and shown me the high road of service, learning, and love for my fellow man.  And this Jesus of Nazareth is the very Jesus our church leaders teach and prophecy about.  I know this with all my heart and mind and I know my witness is true.<br />
How could that be?  Because the Holy Spirit sweetly, peacefully, and with love sublime testifies to my soul that this is the work of the Lord and that if I follow in His course He will purify my heart and fill me with His perfect love.  I love the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1432</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Craig]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 00:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1432</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John:

Just curious as to the Biblical justification you use to say that a Mormon can&#039;t be saved.

Most Christian websites seem to indicate that to be saved one needs to:
1.	Admit that they are a sinner.
2.	Be willing to turn from sin (repent).
3.	Believe that Jesus Christ died for them, was buried and rose from the dead.
4.	Through prayer, invite Jesus into their life to become their personal Savior.

It appears that there is a fair amount of debate on the requirement of water baptism, but is it safe to say that the above list is accurate?

Where in the Bible does it say that salvation is dependent on some list of specific theological musings on the exact nature of deity?  It seems to me that the requirement of salvation is more along the lines of believing on His name.

&quot;And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. &quot; (1 John 5:11-13)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John:</p>
<p>Just curious as to the Biblical justification you use to say that a Mormon can&#8217;t be saved.</p>
<p>Most Christian websites seem to indicate that to be saved one needs to:<br />
1.	Admit that they are a sinner.<br />
2.	Be willing to turn from sin (repent).<br />
3.	Believe that Jesus Christ died for them, was buried and rose from the dead.<br />
4.	Through prayer, invite Jesus into their life to become their personal Savior.</p>
<p>It appears that there is a fair amount of debate on the requirement of water baptism, but is it safe to say that the above list is accurate?</p>
<p>Where in the Bible does it say that salvation is dependent on some list of specific theological musings on the exact nature of deity?  It seems to me that the requirement of salvation is more along the lines of believing on His name.</p>
<p>&#8220;And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.<br />
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.<br />
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. &#8221; (1 John 5:11-13)</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://truedsicernment.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1428</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/joel-osteen-on-fox-news-sunday-mitt-romney-and-mormons-are-true-christians-and-saved/#comment-1428</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jennifer,

&lt;strong&gt;No Mormonism does not believe in the Biblical Jesus.&lt;/strong&gt; 

The Mormon church views Jesus and Satan as spirit brothers and sons of God. God put forth His plan of salvation for the world, and Satan proposed his own plan. Jesus accepted the Father&#039;s plan and offered to implement it as the Savior. The Father chose Jesus, and the spirit of Jesus was given a body through the virgin Mary. He was crucified on a Roman cross, and rose from the dead three days later to establish His deity. The character and life of Jesus is attainable by anyone who performs at such a righteous level. 

The Christian church teaches that Jesus Christ has existed eternally as the Son of God, the second &quot;person&quot; of the Trinity. Jesus took on human flesh about 2000 years ago and was born into the world through the virgin Mary. He was crucified on a Roman cross for our sins, and rose from the dead three days later to bear witness to His pre-existent deity. 

 

&lt;strong&gt;Further:&lt;/strong&gt;

The Mormon church sees God as the Supreme Being of the universe. However, He gradually acquired that position over a long period of time by living a perfect and righteous life. God the Father has a body (flesh and bones). The Christian church proclaims God as eternally and infinitely supreme. He is the same today as always. He is a spirit Being. 

Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary. They believe Jesus is a God, but that any human can also become a god.

The Mormon church holds that Jesus Christ overcame physical death and guaranteed physical resurrection to all mankind. However, spiritual death can only be avoided through personal obedience of God&#039;s commandments. Forgiveness of sins requires faith, repentance and baptism by an approved Mormon priest. The practice of baptism for the dead is an extension of this belief, in which Mormons are baptized in proxy for those who have died without proper baptism. 

The Christian church teaches that we are unable to live a life righteous enough to meet God&#039;s perfectly holy standard. Therefore, we establish a relationship with God by faith in the work of Christ on the cross, not by our own works. Baptism and good deeds are acts of obedience to God, but not the means for gaining eternal salvation.

The Mormon church maintains that although there is temporary punishment for those that are most wicked, Jesus Christ will establish a new kingdom that will consist of three levels: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. 

The Christian church holds that there are only two possible fates after death, heaven or hell. These locations are final, both physically and spiritually. 

The Mormon church uses two sources as its primary authorities: the Book of Mormon and the Bible. The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price are also viewed as divinely authoritative. 

The Christian church uses the Holy Bible alone as its authority from God. Joseph Smith is not recognized as a prophet.

The Mormon church teaches that humans exist as spirit beings before their birth. At physical birth, bodies are given to these spirits. They are also given an opportunity for free-will choice. The physical world represents a period of probation. The status of a person in the afterlife is determined by the way that person lived their life on Earth. If the person lived by a satisfactory standard, (including the fulfillment of Mormon temple obligations) that person has the potential to become a god in the after-life. They can also produce &quot;spirit children&quot; to populate a world of his own (like God did with the earth). 

The Christian church holds that humans do not exist as spirits prior to being born into the world. Humans cannot attain godhood or populate other worlds with &quot;spirit children.&quot;

&lt;strong&gt;And:&lt;/strong&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;When you meet people from the LDS faith, they will say to you — “We’re Christians too, because we believe in the Savior Jesus Christ.” &lt;/strong&gt;

This is well illustrated by:

Mormon apologist Gilbert W. Scharffs [who in his book] claimed that “Latter-day Saints are Christians because they emphatically believe in Christ, use His name in their official church title, and believe in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which testify repeatedly of the reality of Christ and the truth of His teachings….Mormons are Christians. Christians are those who accept Christ as their Savior” (as cited in The Counterfeit Gospel Of Mormonism, 119).

But the question we need to ask is: Which Jesus Christ do you believe in; Jesus Christ of Nazareth—of the historic biblical record—or one of the myriad impostors. In order to answer this question we will need to look at what the LDS church itself actually teaches about Christ Jesus. So, let us first consider this from Gospel Principles, which is an official publication of the Mormon Church. 

The following comes from chapter 2:

God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. “All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body.” (Joseph F. Smith, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, 78, 80)

Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&amp;C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are. (Online source, emphasis added)
And then in the next chapter we read:

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27)… Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1)” 
(Online source, emphasis added).

How about this from the book Our Search For Happiness–An Invitation To Understand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints —written by Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard:

our spiritual selves, if you will — existed along with the rest of our Heavenly Father’s spirit children. Jesus was the greatest of these spirits. He was the first-[one]-born…and He held a special place of honor with the Father “before the world was”… In that capacity He helped implement the plan that would bring us all to earth to obtain physical bodies and experience the vicissitudes of mortality so we could grow in our ability to obey God’s commandments once we heard and understood them. (9)

In the LDS book of “Scripture,” known as The Doctrine And Covenants Jesus is alleged to have spoken this to the so-called prophet Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church:

And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are of the church of the Firstborn. Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;… (93:21-23).

And the finally Dr. Walter Martin sums this section up well for us in his classic textbook The Kingdom of the Cults when he points out that the “Jesus” of the LDS Church is clearly not the Christ of biblical revelation:

The Savior of Mormonism, however, is an entirely different person, as their official publications clearly reveal. The Mormon “Savior” is not the second person of the Christian Trinity,… Mormons reject the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, and he is not even a careful replica of the New Testament Redeemer.

In Mormon theology, Christ as a preexistent spirit was not only the spirit brother of the devil (as alluded to in The Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:1-4, and later reaffirmed by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses, 13:282), but celebrated his own marriage to “Mary and Martha, and the other Mary,” at Cana of Galilee, “whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified” (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, 4:259; 2:82)…[and] the Mormon concept of the Virgin Birth alone distinguishes their “Christ” from the Christ of the Bible. (252, emphasis mine)

So, Who Are You Going To Believe?


And lastly your assertion that: &lt;em&gt;&quot;the concept of the trinity which arose from the nicene creed.&quot;&lt;/em&gt; is a false ascertion. The Bible very clearly asserts the concept of the Trinity &lt;em&gt;(God exists eternally as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Matthew 28:19). &lt;/em&gt;The council of Nicea only made that Biblical concept an established, written and accepted doctrine of the official Church to refute the heresy that Jesus was of a lesser substance than God the Father, and that Jesus was not pre-existant eternally with God the Father.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jennifer,</p>
<p><strong>No Mormonism does not believe in the Biblical Jesus.</strong> </p>
<p>The Mormon church views Jesus and Satan as spirit brothers and sons of God. God put forth His plan of salvation for the world, and Satan proposed his own plan. Jesus accepted the Father&#8217;s plan and offered to implement it as the Savior. The Father chose Jesus, and the spirit of Jesus was given a body through the virgin Mary. He was crucified on a Roman cross, and rose from the dead three days later to establish His deity. The character and life of Jesus is attainable by anyone who performs at such a righteous level. </p>
<p>The Christian church teaches that Jesus Christ has existed eternally as the Son of God, the second &#8220;person&#8221; of the Trinity. Jesus took on human flesh about 2000 years ago and was born into the world through the virgin Mary. He was crucified on a Roman cross for our sins, and rose from the dead three days later to bear witness to His pre-existent deity. </p>
<p><strong>Further:</strong></p>
<p>The Mormon church sees God as the Supreme Being of the universe. However, He gradually acquired that position over a long period of time by living a perfect and righteous life. God the Father has a body (flesh and bones). The Christian church proclaims God as eternally and infinitely supreme. He is the same today as always. He is a spirit Being. </p>
<p>Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary. They believe Jesus is a God, but that any human can also become a god.</p>
<p>The Mormon church holds that Jesus Christ overcame physical death and guaranteed physical resurrection to all mankind. However, spiritual death can only be avoided through personal obedience of God&#8217;s commandments. Forgiveness of sins requires faith, repentance and baptism by an approved Mormon priest. The practice of baptism for the dead is an extension of this belief, in which Mormons are baptized in proxy for those who have died without proper baptism. </p>
<p>The Christian church teaches that we are unable to live a life righteous enough to meet God&#8217;s perfectly holy standard. Therefore, we establish a relationship with God by faith in the work of Christ on the cross, not by our own works. Baptism and good deeds are acts of obedience to God, but not the means for gaining eternal salvation.</p>
<p>The Mormon church maintains that although there is temporary punishment for those that are most wicked, Jesus Christ will establish a new kingdom that will consist of three levels: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. </p>
<p>The Christian church holds that there are only two possible fates after death, heaven or hell. These locations are final, both physically and spiritually. </p>
<p>The Mormon church uses two sources as its primary authorities: the Book of Mormon and the Bible. The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price are also viewed as divinely authoritative. </p>
<p>The Christian church uses the Holy Bible alone as its authority from God. Joseph Smith is not recognized as a prophet.</p>
<p>The Mormon church teaches that humans exist as spirit beings before their birth. At physical birth, bodies are given to these spirits. They are also given an opportunity for free-will choice. The physical world represents a period of probation. The status of a person in the afterlife is determined by the way that person lived their life on Earth. If the person lived by a satisfactory standard, (including the fulfillment of Mormon temple obligations) that person has the potential to become a god in the after-life. They can also produce &#8220;spirit children&#8221; to populate a world of his own (like God did with the earth). </p>
<p>The Christian church holds that humans do not exist as spirits prior to being born into the world. Humans cannot attain godhood or populate other worlds with &#8220;spirit children.&#8221;</p>
<p><strong>And:</strong></p>
<p><strong>When you meet people from the LDS faith, they will say to you — “We’re Christians too, because we believe in the Savior Jesus Christ.” </strong></p>
<p>This is well illustrated by:</p>
<p>Mormon apologist Gilbert W. Scharffs [who in his book] claimed that “Latter-day Saints are Christians because they emphatically believe in Christ, use His name in their official church title, and believe in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which testify repeatedly of the reality of Christ and the truth of His teachings….Mormons are Christians. Christians are those who accept Christ as their Savior” (as cited in The Counterfeit Gospel Of Mormonism, 119).</p>
<p>But the question we need to ask is: Which Jesus Christ do you believe in; Jesus Christ of Nazareth—of the historic biblical record—or one of the myriad impostors. In order to answer this question we will need to look at what the LDS church itself actually teaches about Christ Jesus. So, let us first consider this from Gospel Principles, which is an official publication of the Mormon Church. </p>
<p>The following comes from chapter 2:</p>
<p>God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. “All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body.” (Joseph F. Smith, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, 78, 80)</p>
<p>Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&amp;C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are. (Online source, emphasis added)<br />
And then in the next chapter we read:</p>
<p>We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27)… Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1)”<br />
(Online source, emphasis added).</p>
<p>How about this from the book Our Search For Happiness–An Invitation To Understand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints —written by Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard:</p>
<p>our spiritual selves, if you will — existed along with the rest of our Heavenly Father’s spirit children. Jesus was the greatest of these spirits. He was the first-[one]-born…and He held a special place of honor with the Father “before the world was”… In that capacity He helped implement the plan that would bring us all to earth to obtain physical bodies and experience the vicissitudes of mortality so we could grow in our ability to obey God’s commandments once we heard and understood them. (9)</p>
<p>In the LDS book of “Scripture,” known as The Doctrine And Covenants Jesus is alleged to have spoken this to the so-called prophet Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church:</p>
<p>And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are of the church of the Firstborn. Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;… (93:21-23).</p>
<p>And the finally Dr. Walter Martin sums this section up well for us in his classic textbook The Kingdom of the Cults when he points out that the “Jesus” of the LDS Church is clearly not the Christ of biblical revelation:</p>
<p>The Savior of Mormonism, however, is an entirely different person, as their official publications clearly reveal. The Mormon “Savior” is not the second person of the Christian Trinity,… Mormons reject the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, and he is not even a careful replica of the New Testament Redeemer.</p>
<p>In Mormon theology, Christ as a preexistent spirit was not only the spirit brother of the devil (as alluded to in The Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:1-4, and later reaffirmed by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses, 13:282), but celebrated his own marriage to “Mary and Martha, and the other Mary,” at Cana of Galilee, “whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified” (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, 4:259; 2:82)…[and] the Mormon concept of the Virgin Birth alone distinguishes their “Christ” from the Christ of the Bible. (252, emphasis mine)</p>
<p>So, Who Are You Going To Believe?</p>
<p>And lastly your assertion that: <em>&#8220;the concept of the trinity which arose from the nicene creed.&#8221;</em> is a false ascertion. The Bible very clearly asserts the concept of the Trinity <em>(God exists eternally as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Matthew 28:19). </em>The council of Nicea only made that Biblical concept an established, written and accepted doctrine of the official Church to refute the heresy that Jesus was of a lesser substance than God the Father, and that Jesus was not pre-existant eternally with God the Father.</p>
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